Interview with an Arson Suspect

THE PALISADES FIRE WAS still burning on the morning of January 24 when two investigators knocked on the door of a small studio apartment in a midcentury building just off Hollywood Boulevard. 

On the other side of the door that Friday morning was Jonathan Rinderknecht, a 29-year-old Uber driver with a penchant for raging about the rich. Rinderknecht didn’t know it, but he had been subject of covert surveillance for days.

Rinderknecht had been in Pacific Palisades in the early morning hours of Jan. 1, 2025 and had called 911 to report a small fire that broke out in the hills above the tony, beachside neighborhood.

That blaze, dubbed the Lachman fire, was extinguished by firefighters, but continued to smolder underground and then reignited amid fierce winds on January 7, becoming the Palisades fire, killing 11 people and destroying nearly 7,000 homes and businesses.

And as investigators raced to piece together what had happened, Rinderknecht had transformed in their view from Good Samaritan to arson suspect. 

Studying the pings from his cell phone New Year’s Eve, investigators determined he was at the origin point of the Lachman fire. In the days since, agents had pored over his social media and studied the movements of his car. They had also contacted an FBI profiler to gain a deeper understanding of who Rinderknecht was — and how best to approach him.

Now, Special Agent Matthew Beals of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and Los Angeles police Det. Nellie Knight stood in the dim third-floor hallway outside Rinderknecht’s apartment. They were dressed casually, in jeans, and kept things as low-key as possible, saying they just wanted to have a chat about what he had seen and heard that night. 

That wasn’t entirely true. A few feet away, but out of sight, a SWAT team had piled into the stairwell nearby. LAPD officers were swarming the neighborhood. Beals and Knight each carried audio recorders in their pockets, but they were also outfitted with a microphone that broadcast the conversation to police and federal officials. 

Nine months after that conversation, Rinderknecht was charged with destruction of property through fire and arson. He has pleaded not guilty, and after seven days of testimony, a jury could begin considering his fate as soon as Tuesday. 

Last week, Beals testified for several hours about the day he and Knight spent with Rinderknecht. Prosecutors also played extensive clips from the day's conversation, which ranged from the Hollywood apartment to lunch in Santa Monica to an afternoon hike up to the scene of the fire before Rinderknecht ended the interview.  

A Nostalgic Call to His Ex-Boyfriend

Initially, Beals testified, he and Knight were welcomed into Rinderknecht’s home, which had a small kitchen and a larger main room that featured both a bed and a loveseat. Rinderknecht sat on the loveseat; Knight and Beals sat on chairs flanking him. 

“I just so happened to be in the Palisades,” Rinderknecht told the investigators. “I was actually just working.”

Rinderknecht recounted how he dropped an Uber passenger in Pacific Palisades about 11:30 p.m. on December 31, and then found himself feeling wistful about the two and a half years he had spent living in the area with an ex-boyfriend. On a few occasions, he said, they celebrated New Year’s Eve on a hillside by Temescal Canyon overlooking the twinkling lights from the Summit neighborhood.

During his years living there, he added, he had hiked the trail leading up from the neighborhood into the Santa Monica mountains “ten thousand times.” That fateful night, he said he decided to get out of his car and make the climb once again. “Nostalgic,” he explained.

He tried to call his ex-boyfriend, Rinderknecht continued, and then hiked up alone. He said the night was cloudy and calm – with no fireworks or other people out celebrating. 

As he walked down the trail, he said, he “just started seeing some light.”

It was a fire. And it was taking off. 

“It just started growing really fast and that’s pretty much it,” he told the two investigators. That, he told them, is when he called 911. 

Police records indicate Rinderknecht dialed 911 roughly 17 times (some of the calls did not connect), which his defense attorney has pointed to as evidence of his client’s innocence. On one of the calls played for jurors, Rinderknecht is heard pleading for firefighters to come. 

But prosecutors have pointed to the fact that Rinderknecht, according to phone records, was the only person known to be in the area when the fire broke out.

Sitting in his apartment, the detectives pressed him for details about his exact movements on the trail. After 15 minutes of this questioning, Rinderknecht became suspicious.

“What does that have to do with where I was when I called ?” he asked.

Beals responded by telling him  — falsely — that he was the first caller about the fire and explained they were talking to other witnesses and trying to prevent fires. 

Beals testified that as he talked to Rinderknecht, he decided the man was lying. He thought Rinderknecht’s account of his movements conflicted with the geolocation data of his phone and the timing of the 911 calls. 

But Beals didn’t say that aloud.

Lonely and Living Paycheck-to-Paycheck

Instead, he and the detective continued building a rapport with Rinderknecht, trying to draw him out about his life. 

“He seemed like a guy who didn’t have a lot of people to talk to and liked to be heard,” Beals said. The conversation touched on his past relationships, religion, politics and other intimate topics. 

“The only time he got a twitch in his face was when we talked about the fire,” Beals said. Rinderknecht’s jugular vein would then become visible. 

Rinderknecht also spoke of his own financial precarity.

“It sounded like he was living paycheck to paycheck,” Beals said, barely covering his apartment rent and the Genesis car he rented to work as an Uber driver and courier.

After a few hours in the apartment, investigators proposed visiting the area where the Lachman fire – eventually, the Palisades fire – had ignited. 

Rinderknecht agreed to come on one condition. Spending time with the agents meant forgoing $300 in wages from Uber and delivery drives that day. He asked for reimbursement for the lost wages.

On the witness stand, Beals testified that initially supervisors approved this plan, but later reneged.  

But Rinderknecht would soon have much bigger problems. 

‘We’re All Burning’

The trio hopped into Beals’ truck and made their way to the Westside, stopping in Santa Monica for lunch. 

Once at the trailhead in the hills above the Palisades, Rinderknecht again recounted that night, providing more detail. 

“I had my little moment, crying over here,” Rinderknecht said. Then he added: “Just positive memories and good times up here.”

Rinderknecht also described descending the hill on a switchback on the trail and seeing light “like a flashlight.” Around then, he told the agents, is when he phoned 911. 

“I can’t relive the moment where I was like, ‘Oh, this is, like, you know, bad,’” he said. He said he tried calling 911 but no calls “would go through.” He became “panicked,” he said, and rushed to an area with phone service.

At some moments during the hike, Rinderknecht turned philosophical. He spoke about reestablishing balance in society, and about civilizations that were transformed by plagues or violence. 

“There’s a lot of money that’s allocated towards dividing” people, he said, his voice quickening with excitement. “We’re reaching this transitional point where you’ll never be able to take them down,” he said, with the rich insulated “with all their stored water.”

“And we’re all,” he said, “We’re all burning.”

After spending more than six hours with investigators, Rinderknecht seemed to perceive that his questioners did not believe he was just a witness or Good Samaritan. He pressed the agents to be more direct with him. 

Accusations of Lies — and an Admission

At that point, Beals testified, he told Rinderknecht that he thought he was lying — and essentially accused him of starting the blaze. 

In court, Beals pinpointed on a map where Rinderknecht was when he placed the first 911 call and the origin of the fire – two circles that partially overlapped. Further down the trail was where Rinderknecht said he was when he first saw flames and called 911. 

Beals told Rinderknecht that his phone had made several attempts to call 911 – and that each call had corresponding latitude, longitude and altitude.

For the first time, Rinderknecht acknowledged: “I might have smoked a cigarette,” later saying, “It was maybe one or two. I don’t know.”

The admission prompted a battery of follow-up questions. What kind of lighter did he use? What kind of cigarette was it? How many did he smoke?

“I don’t know,” Rinderknecht said, then becoming agitated by follow up questions. “I’m so confused….What is the relevance?…. I’ve had so many lighters in my life.”

He digressed into another discussion of wealth, inequality, and how people were “basically enslaved.” 

“The inequality is so entrenched,” he said, referencing the killing of the United Healthcare CEO, allegedly by Luigi Mangione. “Like what else do they have? They don’t have any other choice, you know?”

Shortly after this, Rinderknecht put a stop to the interview with agents, who returned him to his building on Sycamore Avenue. 

Later that evening, investigators searched Rinderknecht’s car and apartment. In the glove compartment, they found a bright green Bic lighter.

Matt Hamilton can be reached at [email protected].