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Aug 20, 2026
After the Lakers sale, are the Dodgers next?
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After the Lakers sale, are the Dodgers next?
00:00
54:59
Transcript
0:00
[upbeat music] Hey, welcome to LA World, the show about what is happening in LA right now, a production of LA Material. I'm Hayes Davenport.
0:10
I am joined by LA Material senior reporter Antonia Cereijido and LA Material editor-in-chief Julia Turner. I'm so grateful to both of you.
0:19
I'm so grateful to everyone who listened last week to our first episode and is back listening now. Thanks to you, LA Material has renewed us for another episode.
0:29
[laughs] Uh, and we were also in the top 200 news podcasts on Apple for a second. Globally. Globally. What? [laughs] Uh, and, and Tony, I can feel, got really emotionally invested in being on that list.
0:44
She kinda hasn't been the same- [laughs]... since we fell off, so if we could get back on there, if people listening could share with their friends, could subscribe to the show,
0:55
that would be, just for, um, our quality of life in this office- [laughs]... that would mean a lot. [laughs] Uh, it's back to school, Tupac's murder is being prosecuted in Nevada, a pig got loose in West Hollywood.
1:09
We're not talking about any of that. Uh, what are we talking about this week, Julia Turner? We have three stories that we're digging into. We do. We've got three big stories this week.
1:18
Last week, news broke that Bob Iger and Josh Kushner plan to buy the Lakers from investor Mark Walter, who has been embroiled in a federal investigation that may have been a contributing factor in his decision to sell the team after just one year.
1:32
Mark Walter also owns the Dodgers. Mm. Uh, so Hayes is gonna take a look at whether the federal investigation might be closer to the Dodgers than it appears. Sports. Sports. Diving in with sports. Money. Jail.
1:45
[laughs] Then the long promised people mover at LAX seems to be as snarled as the airport traffic that it is supposed to alleviate. Mm.
1:54
The bond ratings agency Fitch downgraded the project to junk status last week amid lawsuits- I wouldn't be... I wouldn't wanna be called that. No. No junk status allowed here.
2:06
Um, amid lawsuits and other conflict between the airport and the contractor building the thing, uh, and there is a very, very important deadline nearing. Mm. I'm gonna get into the grisly details.
2:17
And then finally, Antonia is gonna grill LA Material's own Julia Wick about her story on the spectacular collapse of the LA Jazz Festival.
2:26
Uh, it was supposed to be the city's next big mega event, and instead it was canceled on the very day that it was supposed to begin.
2:34
Uh, it's a kind of thrilling fiasco and also a sad story, and Antonia's gonna dive in with Julia Wick. Hayes, [upbeat music] sports. Sports. Man, oh man, is it ever sports today.
2:47
[laughs] Uh, so this story is about the Lakers and the Dodgers, two of maybe the five most important teams in American sports. Absolutely.
2:57
And obviously in the cultural map of LA, like, there's nothing bigger than these two teams. Until last week, they were functionally owned by the same guy, Mark Walter, a nuclearly boring businessman- [laughs]...
3:13
but he's from Chicago and, uh, un- until last week, he owned a controlling share of both teams. He bought the Dodgers in 2012 and the Lakers just last year in 2025.
3:23
But Mark Walter got less boring a few weeks ago when it was reported that his business empire was being investigated by the federal government. What for? Let's lock in- [laughs]... while I explain,
3:38
uh, intricate, uh, financial complexities. No hitting the 15-second back button. So in addition to sports teams and other businesses, Mark Walter owns two insurance companies.
3:50
Those insurance companies are called Delaware Life and ClearSpring. Walter's business empire, it's un- under the Guggenheim umbrella, it owns two insurance companies. Insurance companies sit on a ton of money.
4:01
Millions of policyholders are making their payments. They usually don't get their money back for a long time. These insurance companies specialize in, in annuities, which are basically retirement funds.
4:11
So in the meantime, they have Scrooge McDuck coin pool of policyholder money that they're just sitting on. So what do they do with that money? They invest it. That is how these companies make money.
4:23
Sometimes they invest in other companies under the same ownership umbrella, basically distributing loans around the business empire. That is pretty normal. These are called related party transactions.
4:36
They're just supposed to be reported- Mm-hmm... because investors need to know if the, if too much risk is being gathered under one umbrella. Empires fall.
4:45
You want your risk to be, you know, distributed a- the, um, across multiple places. And the companies have been reporting that a small percentage of their loans, their investments, were to these related parties.
4:58
3 to 5% they were saying were going to Mark Walter related businesses.
5:01
Then the federal government starts looking into this, and the insurance companies report that, oops, they say the related party transactions were actually more like 40 or 50%. A lot bigger than 3%.
5:13
It's a lot bigger than 3 to 5%. Yes. Like, in, in the case of one of these companies, half of their investments were going out to other businesses in the Walter universe.
5:26
So in total, about $20 billion worth of policyholder money going out to other businesses in Mark Walter's orbit that were incorrectly reported as being loans to unrelated companies, and kinda funneled through
5:40
SPV, special purpose vehicles, companies that only are propped up to pass this money through to other Walter companies. Okay?
5:50
This was part of a larger investigation, the result of a larger investigation, that also involved the feds raiding a private plane in 2025, taking Mark Walter's phone, also taking- They said, "Give me that."
6:02
"Give me that." They also took the phone of the president of his company, Guggenheim Investments, on the same day. This is not boring. This guy suddenly is becoming a very- Yeah... intriguing figure. Yeah.
6:14
Then it was announced last week that Mark Walter decided to sell the Lakers, the team that he had bought one year earlier at a $10 billion valuation.
6:24
Now he's selling it to Bob Iger and Josh Kushner at a $12.5 billion valuation. So now people are really starting to report on this federal investigation. Right. It used to, you know, people were like, "What's going on?
6:38
You know, some, like, financial thing. Is this really a big deal?"
6:41
Selling the Lakers after one year, like, implies that this is pretty serious, and there is a lot of speculation that the sale was to free up assets in Walter's business,
6:54
especially that it's, it's been reported that, uh, Walter is going around trying to scrounge together some money to cover these loans that, uh, for, that he made from his insurance- Mm-hmm... companies.
7:06
So before we launched this podcast last week, we recorded a few dry run episodes- Mm-hmm...
7:14
where we actually, we dug into stories, we talked about them as if we were doing a real podcast, and we talked with each other, uh, to, to kind of test this format and make sure that the cameras worked or whatever, which they didn't a lot, a lot of the time.
7:28
[laughs] You are my witnesses that I did a segment about the investigation into Mark Walter weeks before- Weeks... he sold the Lakers, and if we had launched a few weeks earlier, I could've looked pretty smart.
7:42
[laughs] You could've really- Yeah... put one over. Ignoring the fact [laughs] that in that test episode, you, Julia, asked me how this could affect the Dodgers and Lakers, and I said, "Not, probably not much."
7:53
[laughs] We could've cut it before that. That's true. So I'm not gonna get infinite chances to look smart on this thing. So today- [laughs]...
8:06
we are getting ahead of this story, and we're gonna talk about how this could touch the Dodgers. Oh my God, I'd almost forgotten about the Dodgers at this point. And Dodgers- This is, they s- he still owns the team.
8:17
Mark Walter still has the controlling share in the Dodgers. Okay. Also, Dodgers, much higher at the current moment in the pantheon of American sports than the Lakers. Totally.
8:28
Certainly winning a lot more than, than, than the Lakers are, for sure. Can I, can I tell you a very brief, sad story about the Dodgers? Yeah, sure. My son is a Mets fan. Hmm.
8:38
The Mets are gonna come up later in the story.
8:39
He told me that his fondest hope is for the Mets to be good enough during this stretch in his team that when they make the documentary about how good the Dodgers are, the Mets are the main other team.
8:50
That's like his- Sure... highest hope for the Mets, and, and- Are they close to that?... a very unlikely one. [laughs] Well, let me tell you how that might happen in, in, in a little bit.
8:58
So we're recording this on Tuesday morning. The news is coming fast and furious.
9:03
The Financial Times reported on Monday that Mark Walter and his often partner, Todd Boehly, are shopping their shares in Chelsea, the English Premier League soccer team. This is one of their other premium sports assets.
9:15
So this is all based on what we know right now. Stuff is happening really fast. You may have heard that the Dodgers are, quote, "ruining baseball." I have heard that. They have the highest payroll.
9:26
They, they were able to, I mean, the, in this trade deadline, they got Tarek Skubal, the best pitcher on the market. They got the best hitter on the market, the best closer on the market.
9:35
In last offseason, Kyle Tucker and Edwin Diaz. They both stink now, but the point is- [laughs]...
9:40
that they can s- they can sustain signing those guys and them stinking and still be, like, a great team because they spend way more money than everyone else. The team, as a team, they make tons of money.
9:52
There's so much because of Ohtani. There's so much money coming from Japan now. And Hello Kitty. And Hello Kitty, of course. Uh, they could even sign Hello Kitty at this point. [laughs] Like, you know.
10:03
I think people would love that. Why not get bat night? They'd probably, she could bat night. They'd probably be fine, and Hello Ki- Hell- Hello Kitty, I learned, is actually a human, canonically a human. Is that true?
10:11
Yeah, that's what I learned. So, so could play baseball. Could play baseball. Okay. It's allowed. There's nothing in the rule book that says Hello Kitty can't play baseball.
10:17
[laughs] Their payroll is the highest ever, but that's driven by these extremely high revenues that they have, which is in turn driven by an amazing windfall TV deal
10:28
that they got, uh, when Walter was buying the team as an indirect result of previous owner Frank McCourt's divorce proceedings and ultimately bankruptcy proceedings.
10:38
That deal is, well, it's its own episode, but suffice it to say, like, this, this TV deal is one of the big separators of the Dodgers from the rest of the league.
10:50
This is a detail from these insurance companies, uh, uh, and their financial statements that I'm personally very curious about.
10:56
Those debts from the insurance companies, those loans that were incorrectly labeled- Mm-hmm... they said, "We're investing in unaffiliated companies," they were actually affiliated. What are those companies, right?
11:07
It hasn't been reported yet anywhere definitively. Like, the investigation hasn't said, like, "We're curious about the money going to these parts of- The empire... Walter's huge empire." Exactly.
11:19
Based on the company's own filings, hundreds of millions of dollars of those incorrectly labeled affiliated investments went to American Media Productions, which is the parent company of SportsNet LA, the Dodgers' regional TV channel.
11:35
Hmm. So SportsNet LA is owned by Mark Walter, owned by the, the Dodgers' ownership group. It was basically created to be a vessel for this TV deal.
11:46
And, uh, a, a Substacker named Nick Nemeth, whose, uh, Substack is called Mispriced Assets, uh, he found that there was $587 million in debt holdings from Walter-related insurance companies that were marked unaffiliated, that were, th- that this money was going to American Media Productions, and The Wall Street Journal has noted these holdings as well.
12:08
So when you hear- Walter was using this insurance company money to invest in his own companies and not reporting it correctly. A big one of those companies was the Dodgers TV network. Huh. It, it gets weirder still.
12:23
You talked about rating agencies. Thank you for introducing Fitch earlier. I was, thought I was gonna have to introduce this from scratch.
12:29
[laughs] It's, it's really what this sh- you know, the way to the top of the News 200 is to get way in- Yes... on bond rating agencies.
12:36
[laughs] So The Wall Street Journal found that, that Mark Walter and his companies disproportionately use this one ratings agency to rate their debt. You've heard of, like, Fitch and Moody's and Standard & Poor's.
12:47
Wall Street Journal found that they use a company called Egan-Jones a lot, and they used it to rate their American Media Productions debt, the SportsNet company debt.
12:58
And Egan-Jones gave this debt, gave American Media Productions a BBB, which is just barely investment grade. It's one notch above junk.
13:07
Two former employees are suing Egan-Jones at the, like, at, at the same time, saying that the company pressured staff to inflate ratings to gain business. In this specific case, or across the board? Across the board.
13:20
Whoa. And a Wall Street Journal analysis showed that across 52 cases they looked at where, uh, a, a debt had been rated by two different agencies, Egan-Jones ratings were on average a point higher than their peers. Whoa.
13:32
And in dozens of cases they were three points higher.
13:36
So, and The Wall Street Journal in this article really focuses on the American Media debt and the way that I feel like papers do when they wanna show that they've got something, even if they can't tell the whole story.
13:48
So hundreds of millions of dollars of, of loans to the Dodgers TV channel sitting on their insurance company's books, mislabeled as an unrelated transaction even though the same guy owns all of it.
13:58
Also hired a rating agency that allegedly had a reputation for inflation that rated these debts as just above junk. If that rating was inflated, it would take it from junk to- BBB... barely investment grade.
14:14
So Walter's group is now looking to unwind these affiliated investments. What does unwinding $537 million in debt from SportsNet look like for the channel and for the Dodgers? Like, I, I don't know.
14:27
I don't know if this is one of the investments that they're, that they're attempting to unwind.
14:32
Uh, but if they hold onto this SportsNet debt and it's found to be mispriced, that's more money that he needs to claw back to keep his insurance companies out of receivership, keep this from, like spreading across the whole Guggenheim empire.
14:47
And hi- his search for money is not going great by, by all accounts.
14:53
He went to Steve Cohen, the billionaire hedge fund guy who owns the Mets, and he asked if Steve Cohen would help him raise capital to pay down these loans.
15:05
And Steve Cohen basically told him, "Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you."
15:10
[laughs] And according to the Financial Times, they say, "A person familiar with the matter told the Financial Times that saying no was a quick and easy decision to pass on helping Mark Walter."
15:21
They're like, "We don't wanna do, have anything to do with that guy." This is a, you know, a rival... This is a billionaire- Well, this is-... baseball rivalry. Yeah.
15:29
Um, I mean, maybe the conversation was like, "Give me the Dodgers and I'll make them," you know. I can make them as bad as the Mets. [laughs] Mets West.
15:36
[laughs] Uh, so on August 12th, the LA Times reports that, uh, sources say Mark Walter has no intention of selling the Dodgers. That was August 12th. Watch them have sold by the time this episode [laughs] goes out.
15:48
[laughs] Um, I, I wanna invite anyone who is curious to look into this relationship, especially someone that, like, really knows about finance. I'm a liberal arts major.
16:02
Uh, this relationship between Mark Walter's insurance companies and this American Media Productions debt, it's all in their, their, their, their public statements.
16:10
And share your findings with me in the #sportschannel in the LA Material forum after you become a member of LA Material at lamaterial.com/upgrade.
16:20
I will be talking about it in there, and right here if you have any extra questions. What does this mean for Lakers fans and Dodgers fans?
16:30
I'll tell you, for the, when it comes to, well, the Lakers are getting new owners. And should, should- We're figuring out exactly who they are- Right...
16:36
because Bob Iger and, uh, Josh Cu- Kushner are buying Mark Walter's and Todd Boehly's and, like, that group's share of the team.
16:44
But now the Buss family, a majority of them, uh, has said that they wanna sell their share as well. Jeanie Buss, however, the sister who was kind of appointed as, like, governor of the team said, "I don't wanna sell.
17:01
We're not selling. I'm governor for life legally." That's- And so- That family drama is also another episode unto itself. Jerry Buss, Dr.
17:11
Jerry Buss said he was worried, and when he was alive, that when he passed, ownership of the team would divide his children, and that- And look what's happened now... did come to pass.
17:22
As documented in the documentary series that Natalie- Running Point... Kalang, Running Point. That's right. Yeah. I mean, not really. It's a, it's a delightful sitcom.
17:29
Kate Hudson plays Jeanie Buss, or a Jeanie Buss type. Yeah. But- So what could happen to the Dodgers? You know, if the team isn't sold,
17:41
the Dodgers, Dodgers fans have recent memory of what it's like having an owner that is embroiled in really serious, like, financial issues. Frank McCourt
17:55
got a divorce that if there is a divorce hall of fame, it has a little special [laughs] exhi- Place... exhibit. [laughs] Yeah. Uh, and that did end up manifesting in less money going towards the team.
18:10
But if they decided to take more revenue out That's money that, uh, could poten- po- potentially less money could be spent on the team.
18:20
They could also end up with new ownership that has a different, uh, approach to managing the franchise. Like, it can- ownership matters a, a great deal.
18:31
But do you think, like, new ownership could mean that this, like, glorious age of Dodger, like, of Dom- Domination... Dom, yeah Ruining, baseball ruining? [laughs] I, I, that, it's that- Could come to an end, yeah...
18:43
it's that combined with a lot of different other factors that are happening at the same time. People are talking about a strike next year in MLB, like, in, in part because of- Of this, yeah...
18:53
the Dodgers ruining baseball. Um, and part of what's being discussed in MLB, i- in MLB is a salary cap, which they don't have now, that, like, basically says you're only allowed to spend this much money on payroll.
19:08
And having, you know, an owner like Mark Walter, who was a pretty powerful voice when it came to these negotiations, um, be preoccupied [laughs] with- Hmm, that's interesting... with some other- Maybe there's less...
19:21
with some other stuff, it, it, uh, it, it, it does change some dynamics in those- Right... in those negotiations There might be less big spending representation at the table if he's tied up doing other things. Yeah.
19:34
Yeah. Um, and it does- Interesting... and also, if he is criminally charged, if that, if, if that happens, there are provisions that can force a sale of the L- Right...
19:45
like, like, um, like, like morality clauses, basically. The, the league ownership is allowed to come in and say, like, "Hey, you have to, um, offload this team." What has Walter said publicly about the investigation?
19:55
Has he had any comment yet? He d- I mean, this is, like before and after the investigation, he was not a talking guy- Yeah... really. And you know, this is- But there's no lawyers being like, "Mr.
20:07
Walter," blah, blah, blah? Oh yeah, they say, oh, they say all, th- they say everything was, everything that was mislabeled was an accident. They're working r- with regulators to get it straightened out.
20:17
He has no intention of selling the Dodgers. So it's hard to predict based on statements exactly what's gonna happen. There's also more and more reporting now,
20:26
uh, the Wall Street Journal covered it, um, Mark Walter had a, had a stroke a few years ago, and it has affected his speech according to people inside the organization.
20:38
There are also people inside the organization that are talking about, like, they're questioning his judgment a little more, per this Wall Street Journal reporting from this week. Um, so it's a, it's a rich, uh,
20:52
thick soup. Do they sell soup at Dodger Stadium? Can't think of- They sell a lot of stuff at Dodger Stadium... can't think of Dodgers- I'm always amazed...
20:57
they do, I'm sure there's some kind of, like, famous Dodger Stadium soup that I could've [laughs] used for the analogy. Hot dog doesn't really work. [laughs] Well, hey, thank you so much. A frothy michelada.
21:07
Hey, thank you for listening. Froth, a frothy michelada, thank you. Perfect. All right. Yes. [laughs] Saved by the bell. [laughs] Wow, okay, super interesting. Uh, thank you, Hayes. Thank you.
21:18
Do you guys wanna know about the People Mover? Yes. What do you think, when I hear people mover, I think of- Disney... purple people eaters. Oh, okay. Okay. I just wanna start.
21:28
It is like a Playmobil-ass name for a thing. Yeah, yeah. Um, and we can- Right? Do, should we just start there briefly? Yeah. Yes.
21:35
So one question I had looking into this, uh, is what is the People Mover and why does it have such a dumb name? [laughs] And- Amazing question... is it a monorail? Is it a train? Mm-hmm. Is it a tram?
21:46
Why do they keep talking about the People Mover? It does sound like a monster in a kids book or a kids toy. People Mover, it's automated people mover, it's the name of the technology.
21:56
It's a train that runs without drivers. It is not a monorail, this particular one, because it runs on a dual track. Um, and
22:07
it is not the name of our project, it is the name of the type of thing that it is, and it is fact, in fact, a symptom of how long it has taken that we all have to refer to it as, like, they're building the train, they're putting up a ladder.
22:20
Like, we're using the generic noun for what it is- Mm-hmm... rather than the name of the finished project. It is going to be called SkyLink. When it is built- Wow...
22:27
we will take SkyLink, but we are stuck in the limbo of they're trying to build a people mover, because- Like Pokemon going from Charmander to Charizard. Hmm. It's so much like that.
22:38
[laughs] Um, but, but I'm so glad you asked about the name, because that was one of the questions I had going into it, is, like, why is it this dopey name that we keep talking about? Nobody calls it SkyLink. Link.
22:50
It'll be interesting to see whether anybody ever does. Yeah. Or whether it's the People Mover- Yeah... forever, because it has been in an eight-year process of getting built. So okay, the People Mover. Mm-hmm.
23:02
It is designed to make LAX easier to get to. That would be awesome. It would be awesome. It was greenlit in 2018. Uh, it was supposed to be finished in 2023, which you may notice is several years ago. Yeah.
23:17
Uh, it is now three years late, nearly $1 billion over budget, and even though you can see the little empty cars sometimes- Mm-hmm... making little runs above you- That's a little wild, yeah...
23:24
at LAX, uh, you yourself cannot ride it yet. Uh, and we wanna talk about it today because the whole project is under the gun in a pretty intense way.
23:34
On the day that this episode airs, we are seven weeks away from something called the lender's long stop date- Mm... on the whole project.
23:42
On October 8th, 2026, if this thing isn't ready to ride, the financiers can call in their loans. Yo. So seven weeks, seven weeks is a short amount of time to get anything resolved. Yeah.
23:58
Once you learn exactly how much there is to be resolved with this project, seven weeks will seem like a nanosecond. Okay. Yeah. It's, it's, it's pretty intense.
24:08
Um, given all this time pressure, you might think that Los Angeles World Airports, or LAWA, which is the city- LAWA...
24:15
run group that runs the airport, also runs Van Nuys Airport Um, and LINX, which is the consortium of developers and contractors who are building this project. You might think, "Oh my gosh, guys, we got seven weeks.
24:29
Let's sit down. Let's hash this out. Let's prepare for a ribbon cutting." Friends, that is not the vibe- Yeah... between these two bodies, nor has it been for several years now. Um, so the developer, LINX- Mm-hmm...
24:43
just last month sued the city alleging breach of contract and all kinds of malfeasance, uh, which is what prompted the bond rating agency, Fitch, to downgrade- Downgrade... the bond. And these were...
24:55
The, this is a group of contractors basically that was hired by LAWA to build this project. Yes. They are now suing LAWA.
25:03
We are on this crazy precipice, and I think we're gonna be hearing more and more about this project across the next seven weeks as we hit this deadline, because, uh, if the project goes into default, that,
25:15
you know, it may be, you know, we may be at the end of Sheehay's contract by the time we're riding this- Hmm... people mover. Um, okay. Even though it is almost done. S- I'm so glad you asked how done it is. Okay. Okay.
25:27
Okay. Currently it is 99.6% done. [laughs] Seems like we could- [laughs] Oh, let us ride it. Yeah. I, I just, I wanna, I wanna give you guys- Get 99.6% of the way to our destination...
25:38
Well, well, there's like a dynamic here that's very funny. So I just wanna give you some doneness percentages across the last few years. Okay. Hmm. 2020, 30% done. Mm-hmm. 2021, 55% done. Hey, it's progress.
25:49
We're moving. 2022, 70% done. Mm-hmm. Zip, zip, zip. 2023, 92.9. Wow. Hey, getting close. Yeah, big jump. Uh, 2024, 96.8. Okay. Slowing down a little bit. Don't have a data, data point for 2025.
26:05
2026, 99.6. And so I just, I'm beginning to think of this as Zeno's people mover. I thank you so much for mentioning- Like... Zeno. [laughs] Like just how close- I was about to. I didn't want to.
26:18
[laughs] So it's Zeno's people mover, and it's really ironic, because the whole point of this project is that it's a last mile solution. Oh, no. Right?
26:26
Like, it's trying to make it so that we can get to the airport via public transit.
26:30
You know, the city has built a metro stop now near the airport, and what this link is gonna do, SkyLink, our friend SkyLink, the people mover, is gonna make it so that you can take this train, this people mover, from the new metro station to the airport, so no car.
26:46
You can skip the horseshoe. Voila. No shuttle. Like- Yeah... yeah. Just, like, you wheel your bag onto your- And forget about LAX-it. Mm-hmm. Exactly.
26:54
It's supposed to be a last mile solution, and in fact, it is getting bogged down at the very last mile. One other really interesting comparative stat is, uh, there was a 2019 study by, uh, uh, L- LAWA.
27:10
Can I call it LAWA? Yeah. We're among friends. Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh, that said that 1%, fewer than 1% of people going to LAX as passengers were taking public transit. Mm-hmm.
27:21
If you include some of the shuttles and the FlyAway buses, that gets a little higher. Um, but it's very low.
27:27
And then if you look at rail-only transit to other American airports, the data that I found on that was much older. It's from 2008. But 13% of people going to DCA in, in DC, 8% of people get to JFK.
27:41
Like, just our, you know, part of why LAX is so crowded and such a nightmare to get through, and so unpredictable to get through, that's the worst part is, like, will it take you 40 minutes to get through the horseshoe or five?
27:50
I have a crazy story related to that. It- That... Okay. I was in the horseshoe heading back... I was living in New York at the time, visiting my family here in LA.
28:00
It was gonna take me 50 minutes at the airport to get to my terminal. It was, like, such intense traffic. So I got out of the Uber, went to, like, got there too late. They were like, "The plane is gone. You're screwed."
28:14
I got furious, and I was like, "Okay, well, you're gonna book me a flight for the next day." He did. The next day, I show up, and I'm sitting at the terminal, and at, there's like a man playing the flute. [laughs] Okay.
28:30
And I'm like- I know. I, I know who it is. [laughs] And I'm like, "What is... " And I was like, "That guy looks so much like Andre 3000- Mm-hmm... playing the flute."
28:38
And I'm texting all my friends pictures, and they're all like, "You're crazy." And they're also like, "That's not a flute." And I'm like, "I swear it sounds like a flute." It was a pan flute, so it was a flute.
28:46
Uh, it was not this traditional kind of flute. It was Andre 3000. [laughs] Oh my God. So it could be good to have- Yeah, this is the case-... this bad traffic... against the people mover...
28:55
these magical little stories- [laughs]... that, that happen. That's true. If you can just be open to what- Yes... life brings you. Actually, I'm very against the people mover at this point.
29:05
[laughs] How else will we encounter Andre 3000? [laughs] Okay. Well, this is the kind of contrarian take- Yeah... sorry, you can expect from LA Material. But all right. Do you guys wanna know why it is so delayed? Yeah.
29:16
Okay. Have you guys ever hired a contractor to build something? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, you've know other people who've done so? Mm-hmm. Famously, like, not the chillest relationship. Mm-hmm. Right? Like- Correct...
29:28
people like to complain about their contractors, the dynamic. It's always like, "Oh, I didn't expect this." Unexpected costs. Yeah. Unexpected delays. Taking forever.
29:37
You're in a big legal contract with each other that is quite expensive, right? Um, you know, the things that the con- contractor might complain about is, like, "The owner keeps changing their mind.
29:47
They said they wanted me to build a this, then now they say I have to build a that. But I already put all this money and time in building this. Like, now I need, you know, they need to pay me more to- Mm-hmm...
29:55
do the new thing." And there's some leverage with the contractor that comes with having half a house- Yes... like, a completely unusable- Right... product.
30:04
Um, so it's a, a relationship that is fraught with potential for tension. When LAWA hired LINX to build this, things seemed to hum along pretty decently for a couple of years. And then they started to go south.
30:22
There were a series of complaints from Linx about information that they said they didn't have about what code they were supposed to build to.
30:32
Uh, there were complaints from Lawha saying, "You should have known what code to build to."
30:38
Um, and you know, if you were following this loosely in the press, you might have seen there was some back and forth, there was a settlement, there was an additional payment. You know, they were kinda
30:50
fighting this out amongst themselves. Um, some additional payments were going out across, like, '21, '22, '23. Some additional delays were agreed to.
30:59
Um, in 2024, there was a massive global settlement, 'cause there were so many claims and so many counterclaims between Lawha and Linx, um, that was supposed to resolve it, of like, "Hey, we've taken all these claims.
31:16
We're paying you, agreeing to pay you an additional $550 million to get this thing done." Clean slate. Go- Like- Let's be done... let's get it by the World Cup. Let's go do it. Yeah. Let's get it by the World Cup.
31:28
So that's where things stood. Um, to try to understand, like, who was correct, who was at fault, what really happened there, we have a couple interesting documents.
31:37
And I think actually looking into the story for me has been really revealing in terms of the, the kinda local news landscape, 'cause this is, like, a huge infrastructure project, right? Mm-hmm.
31:47
Extremely expensive, um, and we're in an environment where there's kinda less local news muscle and manpower than there would've been, you know, 10, 20, 30 years ago.
31:57
Hayes and I both grew up in Boston, where the Big Dig was famously much covered and much delayed, and- So famously. [laughs] All we ever... I was, like, five years old, and I knew all about the Big Dig.
32:06
[laughs] You were at Duncan just staying, like- Yes... talking about the Big Dig. Yeah. Yeah.
32:09
Um, so you know, it, it's, there've been, there's been great reporting about this at LAist, there's been great reporting about this at, from the LA Times, but it's a very complicated debate.
32:21
An interesting document that we have that explains a little bit what was going on is a report from LA's civil grand jury, a body that I can't say I knew a ton about- Mm-hmm... until I started doing this work.
32:32
Do you guys know what the civil grand jury is? No. Kind of. What's your kind of answer? It is a group of people that are empaneled by, I believe, the county- Yep... to sort of pontificate about what's going on.
32:47
[laughs] For a year, and then they publish their findings at the end of the year, and people can read it- Yep... or not read it. [laughs] It's, it's a version of that. Okay. So obviously, criminal grand jury. Yeah.
33:01
We hear grand jury, you think, like, oh, the prosecutor brought you a case and you said yes or no to the prosecutor pursuing the case. Like, that's what grand juries do. That's a criminal grand jury.
33:11
The civil grand jury, which is a body of LA County, um, and actually, there's one in every county in California, is a group of people empaneled for a year. They work every day for a year.
33:21
They, um, and I- Guys, this is the first time I've ever heard the verb empaneled, and you're both using it so confidently. You kinda only- And I-... use it for something like this. Okay... you know? For juries, right?
33:32
What else gets empaneled? Or if you're really mad at your contractor. [laughs] And you're like, "This room was improperly empaneled."
33:37
[laughs] Um, so I was trying to figure out what the hell this was, and I, I reached out to an old friend of mine who actually served on one of these.
33:47
Not the year that this particular subject came up, but was just like, "Hey, sorry, what is this?" Yeah. "And what happens?" So- Do they still hang out? That's what I wanna know.
33:56
[laughs] I, you know, some things I agreed not to- Okay... not to report. All right. Um, but essentially, it's a group of people. They're, y- you're on the panel for the whole year. You show up to work every day.
34:08
You get paid $60 a day. Um, he reported his group was almost entirely retired people, which is people who have the bandwidth to agree to a commitment like that.
34:18
Um, and he said, you know, pretty diverse geographically, racially, maybe less diverse economically, 'cause you need to be able to afford to show up for 60 bucks a day for a full year. Um, and they,
34:31
I think he would object to your verb pontificate. Okay. They investigate. Investigate. I mean, they are just a random jury of people with different life backgrounds. Mm-hmm.
34:40
He said, he said there were actually lawyers, engineers, people with different experience on that year. This would make a good, like, sitcom, don't you think? Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. They- Uncivil...
34:48
[laughs] they self-assign. Mm-hmm. Like, they're, the, the county doesn't say, like, "Hey, we really need you to look into what happened with the People Mover."
34:55
So a different year from the year my friend served, one of the topics that came up in the '24, '25 civil grand jury, the group decided to check out what went on with the People Mover.
35:05
They were thinking about it a little bit like, now that it's over and they've done this big 2024 settlement, let's take a look and see what can we learn about how things go when the county or the city-
35:17
Takes on a project... takes on a huge project- Mm-hmm... and a huge partnership. Did they get in over their head? Was it a bad contract? Did they do a bad deal? Um, and this report is really interesting reading.
35:28
It's honestly kind of bizarre reading. Yes. Thank you. [laughs] It's, it's so unlike what you would expect from some, when you hear civil grand jury report. You can expect something very dry. It's not dry.
35:40
What is- It's- I w- I would say it is- It's very expressive... freakishly expressive.
35:45
[laughs] [laughs] So, so the people on this particular subcommittee, and the grand jury picks 10, 15 topics a year and has subcommittees working, so this was just one of the r- the subjects in the '24, '25 report.
35:58
Um, but the folks who wrote this one tried to really zazz it up to keep our- Mm-hmm... interest by using a, a sort of light screenplay format. Christopher Nolan, watch out.
36:10
If you, if you're wondering, is the phrase, "You can't handle the truth," in this report as a subhead? [laughs] Correct. It is. Okay, I'm being shown.
36:21
I'm being shown It says- Okay [laughs] It actually says- Also, also, wait, wait, and there are exclamation marks... the theater goes dark, the curtain is drawn, music starts, and the audience is listening.
36:30
You want the truth? You can't handle the truth. You can't handle the truth. So many exclamation points. They also use the, um, don't call me Shirley joke They, which, you know, appropriately- Very appropriate...
36:41
from the film- For LAX... Airplane, maybe the film I've seen the most of all the films- Oh, wow... in the world, um, which ha- has scenes shot at LAX- Mm-hmm... for sure. Um, their main conclusion is that,
36:55
uh, there was an original sin in the contract between LAWA and Lynx, and that sin pertained to dispute resolution. The contract held that if these two parties disagreed, they would mutually agree on a
37:11
thing called a project neutral,
37:14
um, which is somebody sort of steeped in engineering and this kind of contractual arrangement and can adjudicate if there's a dispute, who is in the right, who is not in the right, um, and sort of who a court would find to be in the right so that everybody who's tied up in a gigantic construction project can just be like, "Okay, I guess a court would decide this, let's just proceed based, like assuming that they decided that so that we don't actually have to spend three years in court getting to that answer."
37:40
Mm-hmm.
37:40
Um, the grand jury report notes that there are a couple of places where this project neutral seems strongly in favor of the contractors, and that LAWA came to believe that they were biased toward the contractors, and, um, essentially felt that they had no recourse because if they went to the courts it would take too long, and if they went to the project neutral, the project neutral would side with the contractors.
38:05
So LAWA came to feel that they were really up against the wall, and the original contract had no provision to change or resolve this adjudication system.
38:13
Sometimes in a project like this there might be a panel of three project neutrals, and this was just one guy. Um, there's also a- But the implication is not that this one guy wa- was biased.
38:25
Was he actually neutral, I guess is my question. The grand jury report merely reports that there were some decisions that favored the contractors, and that LAWA lost faith in the process.
38:38
There is a YouTuber named Nick Andert who really dove into this document, and then dove into a bunch of other documents that are available.
38:49
He reviewed a ton of paperwork and claims that he could not find any instance in which the project neutral did not find for the contractors, which to him was evidence that a- A sign that there is bias...
39:02
just of a r- a real consistent pattern and that LAWA's- But I'm just, like, you know how like in couples therapy, like it could be that one of the couple, uh, is wrong. [laughs] Mm-hmm. It's true. It's true.
39:14
Um, I, I myself, I mean, the, Nick Andert's video is great and I would send people to it. It's really interesting.
39:20
And, and again, I think it's a testament to sort of where we are in the media ecosystem that, that You- The YouTuber is the one doing an incisive analysis He, he did a huge data dive, and in the course of planning for a one-week podcast I did not, I didn't have time to re-report his review of hundreds of documents, so he certainly came away feeling like, "Wow, this, this project neutral is really biased."
39:40
I think it's hard to know. You're right, one party can be wildly in the wrong, and if you read the lawsuit that LA, that Lynx just filed against LAWA, they're full of complaints about chicanery. Um, they claim that,
39:57
you know, the Department of Water and Power failed to have power to the contract, to the, to the project for months, and so they need a 141-day delay because they weren't able to work.
40:09
They claim that LAWA was lying about all of this. They claim that they did public records requests, and that the airport is out to lunch. I mean, I, I, it does feel like a divorce, like when you start- Yeah...
40:21
it's one of the things where like every document you read you're like, "Wow, this relationship is so curdled- Mm... and so toxic that the work of getting it to any kind of resolution seems insane."
40:33
And I think like Nick Andert came away with like these rapacious capitalists are bilking the s- populace of LA for- And the rapacious capitalists are the contractors. Again, this is h- That's, that's his analysis...
40:44
his conclusion. [laughs] Um, you know, I think if you read the filing from the contractors, you're sort of like, "Well, this does seem possibly quite disorganized, and what did happen in those emails?"
40:55
So, uh, you know, I think what's most interesting to me is what might happen next here. Like, there is no way these people are gonna get back to, um, linked arms in a...
41:06
I mean, actually, honestly, the ribbon cutting- Linked arms... for this project- Mm... should it ever happen [laughs] will be a really interesting social dynamic. Um, but they are furious.
41:17
Every single person, every single document is just like dripping with recrimination. Mm.
41:21
Among the things charged in the lawsuit is that LAX has other work projects going on, and that the other projects are just undoing the people mover projects.
41:30
That they're sort of like building new roads and just like ripping up shit that's part of the AirTrain- Oh... project, the SkyLink project. Um, and so, yeah, I, I feel like the possibilities...
41:42
I mean, it is true still that it is 99.6% done. It is more done than a bar of Ivory soap is pure. Wow. Um, and it
41:55
would really behoove everybody to just shake hands and open the thing and walk away from each other. Like i- as in a divorce. Mm-hmm.
42:03
Like, it will be so much better for everybody when it's done, and I think the question is, like, who could get people in a room to resolve this?
42:13
I mean, I think the lawsuit in some ways, it, you know, both sides seem to feel that they have zero leverage, right? The- Airport is like, "You guys have this project neutral. Who's always siding with you?
42:25
We have, you know, we have no capacity here. You just keep asking us for more money, and there's nothing we can do 'cause we need this done."
42:31
And meanwhile, the contractors are like, "Our whole company links, it gets unlinked- Mm-hmm... if this thing goes insolvent in seven weeks.
42:39
Like, you have infinite leverage because all you have to do is dawdle and delay, and then our lenders are gonna pull from us, and then we're all screwed because we don't get paid, and you guys don't have a working people mover, and you have to start over again and hire new people.
42:53
And guess what? There's not that many companies in the whole world that know how to build a people mover, so you're gonna pay an arm and a leg for them to come on and do it." Mm-hmm. So them not getting to peace
43:06
is very bad for everybody, and based on my close reading of these documents, the likelihood of them ever getting to peace is shockingly low. [laughs] Oh, no. I mean- They gotta get Orna involved.
43:21
They should get Orna involved. Who's Orna? [laughs] Do you not watch Couples Therapy on Showtime? No. No. I actually- Okay, but now I have an idea of who Orna is. You've seen the clips. Okay.
43:30
She ha- she just like stares like this. Yes, she's her- And her... Yeah... she's kind of hawk-like, and she's like, "Oh, how does that make you feel?" Oh, she's amazing. I'm obsessed with her.
43:36
[upbeat music] Speaking of interesting topics, speaking of drama- [laughs]...
43:39
Antonia, you interviewed our own editorial director, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Julia Wick, who wrote a story that we published in LA Material last week about the fall of the Jazz Festival. Amazing story.
43:54
Incredible.
43:55
Uh, you talk to her really going inside her reporting of this story and why this incredible, like, v- very ambitious vision for Los Angeles fell apart this month on the day that it was supposed to begin.
44:15
Let's go check out my interview. Let's go check it out. [upbeat music] Julia, when did you know that something was up with LA JazzFest? Hayes.
44:24
Hayes, uh, went to, Hayes was getting weekend material, which is if everyone subscribes to our newsletter, this is where we list the fun weekend events every week, ready on Thursday night, and he went to the website to put it in, and it was password-protected.
44:42
[laughs] What was your, like, your first step when you learned that? I just started calling people, um, trying to figure out what was going on.
44:49
I was a City Hall reporter for years, so I know a lot of people at City Hall, and, um, eventually got Martin Ludlow's number and reached him at, like, 9:00 something on Thursday night, and he said he couldn't hear me 'cause it was a bad connection, and- And just to be clear, Martin Ludlow is the- Yeah, sorry...
45:04
man who was organizing JazzFest. Yes. The man in charge of JazzFest. Um- And he said he couldn't hear you? Whether he could hear me or not, I'll never know. Yeah. Um, he said he would call me back. Never called me back.
45:14
Texted him being like, "What's going on? Is this canceled?" You know? Um, and then the next day they put out a statement saying the whole thing was off. What was JazzFest supposed to be?
45:29
Like, what was the event as presented all the way last February when they announced it was gonna happen? This February. Sorry, this February. A mere six months ago.
45:38
It was spectacularly ambitious, and frankly sounded amazing. I was excited for it. Yeah.
45:43
Um, it was supposed to be this weeks-long event that boosted LA sagging tourism industry and really brought people all over the city.
45:50
There were gonna be more than 100 free events, a two-day jazz conference, a street festival, and all of this was supposed to culminate in the grand finale, which was the only ticketed, paid ticketed event- Mm-hmm...
46:01
which would be this mega concert at Dockweiler Beach headlined by John Legend and Janelle Monáe. I mean, it does sound like an awesome event. Um, when did things, like, start to fall apart?
46:14
So this is what I spent a lot of my story trying to figure out, and it really seems like a lot of the basic groundwork for the festival had never been laid.
46:23
They were planning to have first 25, and then it got, um, narrowed down a bit to more like 15 of these free concerts in parks all around the region, and they'd never secured police permits for those concerts. Um,
46:37
and city officials had, you know, repeatedly been contacting them, trying to get them to turn in the stuff they needed to turn in for these permits. So just that kind of really basic stuff had not happened.
46:47
You know, there was not a single panel scheduled for this conference. I like, yeah, the, I feel like you hear fest, you don't always assume conference, and it's fun that there was a conference involved in this.
46:57
Yeah, about the state of jazz. I know. Would've been really cool. I know. It would've been cool to know. It sounds like what you're saying is that it never really was happening. [laughs] Do you know what I'm saying?
47:06
Like, the- I mean- Yeah... so here's where it's confusing. Like, there was, it was, as I said, like, unbelievably ambitious, so there was a lot that was happening.
47:14
Tons of artists had been booked, but for instance, a provision in their contracts said they'd get a 50% deposit once the contract was countersigned, meaning once they signed it and then LA Jazz Festival signed it again.
47:26
I talked to about a half dozen artists who said they never got their countersigned contract, so they never got their deposits. Right. There was a lot of stuff like that going on.
47:34
What Ludlow really cited as the final nail in the coffin was he said there were m- he got a bill for more than seven figures in police and fire reimbursements as well as other municipal fees, and he, basically his kind of takeaway was like, "I couldn't have possibly anticipated this, and it was really last-minute."
47:52
You know, sources on, on the government side really had a different view of that and felt like- He could have known this... these costs should have been anticipated- Yeah...
48:01
for an event like this, something this large scale. You know, the Dockweiler would have been logistically really just a massive undertaking.
48:10
Um- And also just s- if folks don't know, the importance of this event happening on the beach through the Coastal Commission was that the beach in LA is a place where there's been a lot of...
48:23
uh, discrimination, like, regulations that d- don't allow Black beachgoers, and there was sort of like a reclamation aspect to having this big event at the beach. Like, what is the s- significance of this- Absolutely...
48:36
final event? Yeah. Yeah.
48:37
Martin did, uh, you know, I listened to, went back and listened to all the interviews he'd done in the lead up, and spoke about the symbolism of the beach in this really moving, powerful way as, yes, like, a reclaiming of the shores after, you know, it being this real symbol of segregation in Los Angeles way back when, and a place where property had been taken from Black owners on the California coast- Right...
49:04
historically. And so the idea of having this festival there, and having a people's festival there, a good portion of tickets would've been free, was really, he saw it as righting historical wrongs. Right.
49:17
And that's part of what makes the whole thing so sad. Ugh. Um, what's been the fallout for those artists? Like, what have they had to endure in, in the process of this being canceled?
49:26
Yeah, I spent a lot of time talking to people who were scheduled to perform, and it's been really hard for them. You know, people were counting on this payday. There was- Yeah...
49:35
an exclusivity contra- uh, sorry, an exclusivity clause in the contract, which basically means they couldn't perform withi- within 150 miles 30 days before or after their gig.
49:45
So, you know, one artist I talked to had turned down other gigs and was counting on the fee to make her rent, and she actually filed an application with the nonprofit Music Cares to try and get an emergency grant to pay her rent.
49:57
She... Oh, my God. Um, other people, you know, booked non-refundable travel. They also, you know, for something like this, it's like it's a really big opportunity.
50:04
There were people who paid for a publicist to try and maximize the opportunity- Okay, and you-... those kinda things... you spoke to one of those publicists, right? Oh, my God, this call was so [laughs] What happened?
50:13
[laughs] Yeah. There was a publicist I called maybe the Saturday of that weekend, right after it was canceled, and she didn't know the festival was canceled, and I felt so bad.
50:26
I, I apologized to her, um, 'cause she, I was breaking the news to her, which is, you know, never a place you wanna be in as, as a reporter. Just on the human level, I felt really bad.
50:37
Like, I feel like the arc that I've experienced with this story is like, you know, when you hear of, like, a big kind of fiasco like this, there's, like, a bit of glee in this.
50:45
Like, I was one of those people who watched, like, the, both Fyre Fest documentaries.
50:49
Um, but in, like, the case of Fyre Fest, it's, like, these, like, ultra-rich people who can afford this, like, crazy festival where there's, you know, where you go to an island.
50:58
Like, this is, like, one that was, like, a grassroots, community-based event. And, like, as I've learned more about the Jazz Fest, like, the more upsetting this story really is.
51:09
Um, do you think those artists are gonna get paid? So when I, and Ludlow actually gave us hi- the first interview he gave, um, since the cancellation.
51:18
He talked to me a couple hours before we published the story, and he said that they do plan to pay everyone who was owed a deposit. Mm-hmm.
51:25
But, you know, I don't, he couldn't answer when I asked where that money was coming from, and so I, I don't know if they're gonna get paid or not. Um, I think it's really an open question.
51:33
And to your other point, yeah, this was a story that made me, like, really profoundly sad- Yeah... reporting it. There just were so many, there was so much ambition, but also good intentions. Mm-hmm.
51:46
Um, you know, I think there was probably a lot of hubris, too. Right.
51:49
But there were a lot of people working on this I talked to who, like, really deeply believed in, in what they were doing and what they were creating, and the loss of it is sad. It's sad for the city.
52:02
Speaking of where the money is coming from, the festival's title sponsor was Airbnb. Airbnb is actually an entity that's being talked about a lot right now in local politics here in LA.
52:12
They were one of the largest donors to the primary mayoral election. They gave a lot of money for Karen Bass' reelection campaign. What is Airbnb's priority right now in LA? Great question.
52:26
Yeah, Airbnb has really been playing in LA politics- Yeah... as of late, and I should say also the city attorney's race.
52:31
They poured money into the city attorney's race, and really played a major role in ousting City Attorney Hydee Feldstein. Interesting.
52:39
Their number one goal is, um, loosening regulations around short-term rentals in LA, particularly ahead of the Olympics. That has been their big priority. Okay, are we gonna see an LA Jazz Festival?
52:51
So Ludlow has said he plans to do this again next year. Really? We'll see what happens. I mean, I think there'll be a lot of hurdles. There are a lot of jazz festivals in LA.
53:02
None would've been anywhere near the scale of this, but the Leimert Park Jazz Festival will be held in a couple of weeks. Um, and then the Central Avenue Jazz Festival is in September.
53:12
So if you wanna see jazz in LA, there are definitely places. That sounds really lovely. Well, Julia, thank you so much for all your incredible reporting. This story was fascinating.
53:21
There's so much good stuff in this piece. It is such an interesting read, and yeah, I mean, this is a important chapter in LA history, so thanks for recording it. Thank you so much for having me on.
53:32
[upbeat music] Um, hey, so we gotta close the show, but can I, can I pop in for a political minute? Oh, yeah, please, please pop in. Yeah.
53:39
Just wanna flag for our listeners, the campaign season is heating up this week, and the first debate since the primary between Mayor Karen Bass and her challenger, Council Member Nithya Raman, is this week, is scheduled to take place Wednesday night.
53:54
We are recording before it, so as you are watching on Thursday morning, you should head over to lamaterial.com to see our coverage and analysis of that.
54:03
And if you wanna read all of it, please become a member of LA Material. Uh, you can join at lamaterial.com/upgrade. Read every single thing that we publish on our site.
54:15
You can join our LA forum, where we're gonna be having a lot of discussions about this week's episode, a lot of- Oh, yeah... a lot of rich, uh, stuff going on in there. Thank you so much for listening today.
54:26
Check out links to the things that we talked about on our show page at lamaterial.com/podcast. Our producers this week were Ruben Davis and Liam Houle. Michelangelo Rodriguez made our theme song.
54:36
We also had production and marketing support from Miguel Contreras, Cole Schiffer, Seven Eke, Alethea Pinadi, Galen Savitsky, Nikki Fancy, and Sarah Wick.
54:44
Don't forget to follow us on YouTube at youtube.com/laworldpod, and we will be back next week. Bye. [upbeat music]
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